A Spanish daily now reports the cardinal’s January liturgy document was commissioned and approved by the pope himself, with “not a single comma” changed. Rome’s direction is unmistakable.
I’m a convert— I was Anglo-Catholic priest and chaplain for a quarter century, celebrating ad orientum, careful to ensure my maniple didn’t knock over the chalice, celebrating what was essentially a Tridentine Low Mass in Elizabethan English. That Mass is, I believe, truly a thing of reverent beauty when done well.
Reverent beauty, but not unity. When I left the Episcopal Church and swam the Tiber, I didn’t expect the Catholic Church to adapt to me— I came making the most painful sacrifice of my life, giving up my life as a priest, and placing myself life under obedience to the Holy Father and the Catholic Church.
Do I think that the old rite’s liturgy is more beautiful than the new.? Yes. But my opinions about liturgical esthetics are unimportant. What’s important, no, essential is the cohesion and unity of Christ’s Church.
I now live just outside the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Fátima in Portugal, where I attend daily Mass and Adoration with the faithful from all over Europe, from sub Saharan Africa, from Asia and the Americas. Being among the faithful and devout from all over the world as we share together in receiving Christ’s Body, the ultimate sign of our unity, is a deeply moving thing.
I don't understand why there's so much polarity around this. The Latin Mass is beautiful and always sustained us. Everyone has the translation in the vernacular. It was comprehended by the heart, where the meaning is ascertained, not just by words. So long as the "sermon" is in the vernacular, what's the issue? That Mass's beauty appeals to the senses and lifts them above the mundane into the supersensible, into the Mystery.
Is it about disobedience, a power struggle? Do the traditionalists reject the other teachings of Vatican II?
I think that last question is the correct one. For Francis and Leo, the concern is less about the beauty of the old rite and more about how it’s used as a tool to contest other teachings of the Council, notably those on religious freedom, the role of the laity in the world, and the Church's relationship to other religions.
The moto propio doesn’t affect the SSPX, they are already excommunicated. I do think the Motu Propio ought to be reevaluated as a pastoral ( or lack there of) approach for the faithful who desire to be in communion with Rome but have love and find their faith grow in the TLM.
In a synodal church that Francis tried to conceive, he went against his own conception of synodality when he overextended his reach in dictating what bishops and priests ought to celebrate the mass in their parishes and dioceses.
Pew said 2%. Hmmm. If we assume the lower estimate of 50,000,000 Roman Catholics in the U.S., that would be one million people going to a Tridentine Latin mass every week.
That's absurd. Assume 75 people at a mass...and 2 masses in each parish... That would be over 6,600 parishes celebrating in Latin. Nope. An easy search suggests that there are at most 700 parishes in the country using the Tridentine liturgy...and 100 of those are SSPX. No more than 600 parishes ouf of 19,600 in the country.
Somebody at Pew didn't apply common sense to their own data.
A few comments:
On Sundays, I remember a relaxed, happy, at times playful atmosphere, although appropriately respectful and serious. It was especially fun being an altar boy. After Mass one Sunday, Father Pius read Frank Arlinghouse and I the riot act: "YOU TWO, THE SUSCIPIAT IS NOT A RACE."
For us it kinda was...
Anyway, perhaps because it was our sea, the air we breathed, we didn't think of it as THE LATIN MASS which must be honored... It was simply Mass and yes, High Mass with the incense was beyond interminable - even when you got to swing the thurible. (cough, cough)
When my sisters visited me in the late 1990's in the Puget Sound, out of nostalgia we decided to go to a Latin mass. It was genuinely difficult to find a parish that had the rite -
and the worshippers at the mass the Sunday we went? Ooof. Everyone there took themselves so seriously, as tho' the fact itself - that they were attending a LATIN mass - was the point and made it and them special. We walked out, looked at each other, and almost burst into laughter before we got to the car because everybody was soooooo serious and seemed full of themselves. It was actually disappointing.
Late Night Cathechism was far more realistic and very, very funny.
So -
It was - it is - the Mass. Sacred. A place to be a community. But does the Mass in any language convey a special holiness to an individual attendee? I think not. It's a sacred manifestation of the Mystical Body and a chance to remember that we are dust. Miraculous - but dust to be blown in four directions in a flash. It's a chance to remember someone two millenia ago who still walks among us in His own mysterious way.
I was young when we moved to the vernacular so my attachment to the Latin Mass is not strong at all. I view it as something long past. I grew up being able to comprehend all parts of the Mass from the Gloria to the Lamb of God and I feel strongly about that. I've been to Mass said in French Canadian, Polish and Spanish. They are just as beautiful. Bottom line, this is where my Church is, I don't see the need to go back.
"I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another, for freedom of the press, and against all violations of the Constitution to silence by force and not by reason the complaints or criticisms, just or unjust, of our citizens against the conduct of their agents."
This doesn’t mean Pope Leo isn’t still discerning on how to approach the Latin Mass, he has met with countless bishops, cardinals and societies who have an affinity for the Mass. Like most things Leo is listening before he makes a decision. I wouldn’t take a Cardinal Roche’s with too much weight.
I am highly doubtful, Chris points out the virtue of Leo listening to the Church before making decisions. Which is a great virtue, this gives me hope that Pope Leo is taking his time with this matter. Everyone is so angsty for Leo to make move, but Pope Leo needs to make a decision that will go beyond his time as a pope, and that takes serious time and discernment.
Cardinal Roche is almost out the door, he will speak out more in his last months. The argument that Leo didn’t change a comma in Roche’s document presented at the consistory is not sufficient because Leo didn’t change any document that heads of Dicasteries were to present at the consistory.
I’m a convert— I was Anglo-Catholic priest and chaplain for a quarter century, celebrating ad orientum, careful to ensure my maniple didn’t knock over the chalice, celebrating what was essentially a Tridentine Low Mass in Elizabethan English. That Mass is, I believe, truly a thing of reverent beauty when done well.
Reverent beauty, but not unity. When I left the Episcopal Church and swam the Tiber, I didn’t expect the Catholic Church to adapt to me— I came making the most painful sacrifice of my life, giving up my life as a priest, and placing myself life under obedience to the Holy Father and the Catholic Church.
Do I think that the old rite’s liturgy is more beautiful than the new.? Yes. But my opinions about liturgical esthetics are unimportant. What’s important, no, essential is the cohesion and unity of Christ’s Church.
I now live just outside the Sanctuary of Our Lady of Fátima in Portugal, where I attend daily Mass and Adoration with the faithful from all over Europe, from sub Saharan Africa, from Asia and the Americas. Being among the faithful and devout from all over the world as we share together in receiving Christ’s Body, the ultimate sign of our unity, is a deeply moving thing.
Thank you for this, Father. This is a moving comment.
I don't understand why there's so much polarity around this. The Latin Mass is beautiful and always sustained us. Everyone has the translation in the vernacular. It was comprehended by the heart, where the meaning is ascertained, not just by words. So long as the "sermon" is in the vernacular, what's the issue? That Mass's beauty appeals to the senses and lifts them above the mundane into the supersensible, into the Mystery.
Is it about disobedience, a power struggle? Do the traditionalists reject the other teachings of Vatican II?
I think that last question is the correct one. For Francis and Leo, the concern is less about the beauty of the old rite and more about how it’s used as a tool to contest other teachings of the Council, notably those on religious freedom, the role of the laity in the world, and the Church's relationship to other religions.
Here's a good video rundown from America Magazine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3wAE00eoXg&t=81s
The moto propio doesn’t affect the SSPX, they are already excommunicated. I do think the Motu Propio ought to be reevaluated as a pastoral ( or lack there of) approach for the faithful who desire to be in communion with Rome but have love and find their faith grow in the TLM.
In a synodal church that Francis tried to conceive, he went against his own conception of synodality when he overextended his reach in dictating what bishops and priests ought to celebrate the mass in their parishes and dioceses.
Pew said 2%. Hmmm. If we assume the lower estimate of 50,000,000 Roman Catholics in the U.S., that would be one million people going to a Tridentine Latin mass every week.
That's absurd. Assume 75 people at a mass...and 2 masses in each parish... That would be over 6,600 parishes celebrating in Latin. Nope. An easy search suggests that there are at most 700 parishes in the country using the Tridentine liturgy...and 100 of those are SSPX. No more than 600 parishes ouf of 19,600 in the country.
Somebody at Pew didn't apply common sense to their own data.
A few comments:
On Sundays, I remember a relaxed, happy, at times playful atmosphere, although appropriately respectful and serious. It was especially fun being an altar boy. After Mass one Sunday, Father Pius read Frank Arlinghouse and I the riot act: "YOU TWO, THE SUSCIPIAT IS NOT A RACE."
For us it kinda was...
Anyway, perhaps because it was our sea, the air we breathed, we didn't think of it as THE LATIN MASS which must be honored... It was simply Mass and yes, High Mass with the incense was beyond interminable - even when you got to swing the thurible. (cough, cough)
When my sisters visited me in the late 1990's in the Puget Sound, out of nostalgia we decided to go to a Latin mass. It was genuinely difficult to find a parish that had the rite -
and the worshippers at the mass the Sunday we went? Ooof. Everyone there took themselves so seriously, as tho' the fact itself - that they were attending a LATIN mass - was the point and made it and them special. We walked out, looked at each other, and almost burst into laughter before we got to the car because everybody was soooooo serious and seemed full of themselves. It was actually disappointing.
Late Night Cathechism was far more realistic and very, very funny.
So -
It was - it is - the Mass. Sacred. A place to be a community. But does the Mass in any language convey a special holiness to an individual attendee? I think not. It's a sacred manifestation of the Mystical Body and a chance to remember that we are dust. Miraculous - but dust to be blown in four directions in a flash. It's a chance to remember someone two millenia ago who still walks among us in His own mysterious way.
My take, anyway.
I was young when we moved to the vernacular so my attachment to the Latin Mass is not strong at all. I view it as something long past. I grew up being able to comprehend all parts of the Mass from the Gloria to the Lamb of God and I feel strongly about that. I've been to Mass said in French Canadian, Polish and Spanish. They are just as beautiful. Bottom line, this is where my Church is, I don't see the need to go back.
So the door is slammed on the Latin Mass permanently. I will not join in the celebration.
I grew going up going to parochial schools & attendjng mass daily .
I thought the Latin Mass was beautiful and special .
Thomas Jefferson on Religion:
"I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another, for freedom of the press, and against all violations of the Constitution to silence by force and not by reason the complaints or criticisms, just or unjust, of our citizens against the conduct of their agents."
By “purer”, do you mean, whiter? Cuz that’s what this is all really about.
This doesn’t mean Pope Leo isn’t still discerning on how to approach the Latin Mass, he has met with countless bishops, cardinals and societies who have an affinity for the Mass. Like most things Leo is listening before he makes a decision. I wouldn’t take a Cardinal Roche’s with too much weight.
But Christopher says it’s game over.
I am highly doubtful, Chris points out the virtue of Leo listening to the Church before making decisions. Which is a great virtue, this gives me hope that Pope Leo is taking his time with this matter. Everyone is so angsty for Leo to make move, but Pope Leo needs to make a decision that will go beyond his time as a pope, and that takes serious time and discernment.
Cardinal Roche is almost out the door, he will speak out more in his last months. The argument that Leo didn’t change a comma in Roche’s document presented at the consistory is not sufficient because Leo didn’t change any document that heads of Dicasteries were to present at the consistory.